“to Sign Agreements With The Jihadists Is To Betray The Malian State”

The Africa Point: You are the warlord of Dan Na Ambassagou, should your movement be considered a self-defense group or a militia?

Youssouf Toloba : We are convinced that we are fighting for the Republic, for the country, for everyone. We do not accept that we are treated as bandits or mischief on the understanding that, in general, the term “militia” has a negative or even pejorative connotation. We are not a militia, we are rather resistance fighters like those who, in France, during the Second World War, took up arms against the Germans who were the invaders.

How do you recruit your members? We saw fighters at the checkpoints who looked very young to us. From what age can you join your movement?

To integrate Dan Na Ambassagou, you have to be a patriot and be ready to shed your blood for the country. Whoever you are, if you really have the courage and the heart to be able to work and fight for your country, you are welcome in Dan Na Ambassagou. We do not recruit under 18 and do not have minors among us.

Are your members patriots for the Dogon Country or for all of Mali?

The Malian flag does not belong only to the Malian government. It belongs to the State and the State, that is to say the 20 million Malians.

What is the level of your workforce? In 2018, you said there were around 5,000 of you …

At the time, that was an estimate. Today, there are many more of us than that. I can assure you, being the only one to hold the list of members of our organization.

What are the areas of the Dogon Country currently under the control of Dan Na Ambassagou?

When you pass Mopti, from Bandiagara to Douentza, you can move around and sleep without worry. At the level of the plain, it is something else. In our self-defense movement, the combatants are neither paid nor fed by the state. Also, we cannot occupy all the areas where the state is absent. This is not obvious because our only enemies, the jihadists, come from everywhere and have a lot of resources while we lack support, equipment, weapons.

The Bankass area is particularly troubled when your men are present there. For what reasons ?

My men are everywhere, whether in Bankass, Douentza, Bandiagara, Koro, etc. Sadly, politics got in the way with wacky peace deals signed with the jihadists in Koro, and it spilled over into Bankass.

Why, after 5 years of war, are you still opposed to these agreements?

Why would we cede our land to strangers? The objective of the jihadists is to submit us. To sign an agreement with them is to betray the Malian state which is secular. These agreements lead to the application of Sharia law on the ground, which we do not want. In all the areas where these agreements were signed, there is no school of the Republic, no local authorities such as mayors and sub-prefects. The state is totally absent and so are humanitarians. How, with all this, the state was able to accept this kind of agreement.

Can a meaningful peace be made without you?

I cannot say that peace is impossible without our participation. In any case, my men and I are ready to defend our point of view for a secular state with our means.

Are you also opposed to the agreements signed under the aegis of the NGO Center for Humanitarian Dialogue?

For us, HD-funded deals are of the same ilk. In the background, it is the jihadists who are leading the way. The personalities involved in these reconciliation meetings are acting under cover. They push the populations to sign agreements to allow the jihadists to be the masters of the place and to apply the Sharia.

Are there currently areas where such agreements have been signed and where Sharia is now applied?

Indeed, there are localities where the jihadists are asking that women be veiled and that they no longer be sent to the fields. Their argument is simple: “it is forbidden by religion”. At the same time, they ask men to shorten their pants and wear beards. This phenomenon has already started in Dogon Country.

What do you propose as a solution on the understanding that you cannot go to war indefinitely?

We must fight! In the five years that we have been there, the jihadists have not been able to take over places in our area and pretend they belonged to them. Victory belongs to God. In any case, I can tell you that until a winner stands out in this conflict, there will be no peace.

There was talk of including you in DDR. Would you still like to be included in this process?

We regularly receive calls in this direction. Our response is invariable. May the state provide security and my men will be ready to join the process. In other words, it will be necessary to find replacements for my men to continue to ensure the safety of the populations.

You met the Minister of Reconciliation at the beginning of March. Who initiated this meeting?

It is an initiative of the Minister of Reconciliation himself, in view of the situation experienced by the populations in the Dogon Country. This meeting is explained by the fact that the many reconciliation meetings have not produced results. The minister therefore understood that he had to go see the hunters and talk to them.

What follow-up will be given to this meeting?

We always remain open to proposals for solutions in the direction of peace. But we do not want any more botched agreements that would not prevent the jihadists from coming again to attack the populations. We want to achieve real peace. So we wait.

You are waiting for official recognition from the government. However, the announced dissolution of Dan Na Ambassagou is still not effective.

The question of dissolution must be put aside. We stood up to defend our homeland, to fight the jihadists. Everything must therefore be done to get out of the current situation. We are ready to fight alongside the state to liberate the whole territory. Here there is no longer any state authority. He must come and together we must liberate our land. Otherwise, as far as we are concerned, we will continue the fight.

What type of relationship do you have with the transitional government? Do you think that this government will be more able to go in your direction?

You know there ain’t no authority that I had a special relationship with

Not even with the former Prime Minister Soumeylou Boubeye Maiga?

Not even with Soumeylou Boubèye Maïga.

How does the transitional government judge the Dan na Ambassagou self-defense movement?

I cannot speak for the government. What I can say is that this meeting testifies to the importance that the government attaches to the Dan Na Ambassagou movement and to the role we play in securing and free movement of people and goods in the areas we cover. . We are filling a void left by the state across the country. And that he is aware of.

You want to pool forces to solve the security problem in the Dogon Country. What answer did the minister give you on this point?

The answer must come from the ministry. He’s the one who decides. We wish to pool our strengths with the Famas. The Minister even wanted us to consult Sékou Bolly so that he could form his self-defense group from only young Fulani who left the jihadist groups. Objective: to help secure the Fulani villages. I think this is a good thing.

Do you want, as in Burkina Faso, to obtain a status equivalent to the famous volunteers for the defense of the fatherland? Are we heading towards closer collaboration between the Famas and Dan Na Ambassagou in the field, in exchange for financial support and equipment for the Famas?

Yes, that’s a status that would suit us, but we’ll see. The Minister has, in any case, taken careful note of all our concerns. He thinks that since we are a key player in the area, our proposals must also be taken into account. But, for the moment, I cannot speak for the State.

There have already been mixed patrols between Sékou Bolly’s self-defense group and Dan Na Ambassagou. This had worked well until the Ogossagou massacre for which Sékou Bolly had accused Dan Na Ambassagou of being responsible. Is a new alliance possible?

No initiative, no action is too much to solve the current problem. If there are any who come back to better feelings and wish to act with us, we are quite willing to give each other another chance for peace to return.

On Ogossagou, what is your version since your movement is held responsible for this massacre which left more than 100 dead?

I say it and I repeat it. We are not responsible for what happened in Ogossagou.

A United Nations investigation report names you as responsible

Did the United Nations catch Dan Na Ambassagou attacking the village?

No, but they investigated and relied on evidence and testimony …

Even if they have investigated, I tell you that it is not Dan Na Ambassagou who is responsible. I can tell you categorically

Yet it took place in your territory. Do you have any information on those who would have been the perpetrators?

Are all the villages that were destroyed in Dogon Country less important than Ogossagou? At the same time in Ogossagou, there was the Dogon village of Sobane Da which was burnt down. Over 100 people were murdered there! Is it less important? Are you interested in it? Much less. One can wonder if there are not two weights, two measures.

The fact remains that the reputation of your movement has been deeply tarnished. How do you plan to reverse this state of affairs?

You cannot stop people from talking and speculating. In the circle of Bankass, there are jihadists, but also the army and the Minusma. Why are we pointing the finger at Dan Na Ambassagou? The United Nations has the media with them and lied about us.

You were a farmer. You have become a fighter. Today you are a warlord. And tomorrow ?

Tomorrow, if there is peace and I am still alive, I will go back to my first job which is agriculture.